Links

Some Links to Posts I thought were interesting:

Wifely Submission is Easy: Well,  the principle is simple.

Groundless Fears of Men About Their Daughters:  Ah, a subject my husband and I frequently revisit. We are not opposed to our daughters going to college but we do not take the matter lightly either.

Women and Morality  Women are not little, emotionally driven, amoral faeries that men must repel or appease in order to survive. Women can attain virtue- should attain virtue and like men will have to stand before God and face judgment. Women however, have different duties than men and seem to approach morality differently as well: “I would say not that women are amoral but that their morality is teleological (utilitarian) rather than deontological. . .  women do not generate their own morality internally, but rather, typically, adopt the morality of the crowd. The second point is that putting women in positions of religious authority is obviously liable to lead rapidly to the promotion of moral error. . . Incidentally, studies have shown a truly extraordinary correlation between a father’s religious practices and those his children eventually adopt, and very little correlation with the mother’s.”

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15 comments

  1. Women have different duties and seem to approach morality differently as well
    Great line. Or: Women will be saved through childbearing if with faith, love and sanctity.

    and very little correlation with the mother’s
    St. Augustine and St. Monica, pray for us.

    Puzzled why women and men these days both seem to envy the other sex. Moral torment of being a man? Torment. Moral dilemmas of woman? Terror. I’ll pass, thank you.

    Would be interested in a post on female college by a traditional RC female in this era.

  2. I was homeschooled all the way through and my parents were violently opposed to college education for women. My mother has a bachelor’s degree, my father a graduate degree, and there were three daughters (of which I am the youngest), and both sets of grandparents have advanced degrees, including the grandmothers, highly unusual given that in their generation it was rare for women to have advanced degrees and be married and raising children at the same time. My grandmother was a lab technician with a scientific degree during the Second World War, in addition to raising my mother, growing a Victory Garden and any number of other things — truly a renaissance woman in my eyes.

    One of my sisters has a certification from a business college, the other sister has a high school diploma. After much struggling, I finally obtained an associate’s degree, but it took a lot of struggling — I purposely waited until I was twenty-one to approach the subject because then there could be no objections, even though I could vote at eighteen and was considered legally an adult at that time.

    I am now married with six children. More doors have been slammed in my face in the field of trying to find work I can do from home due to lack of the bachelor’s degree. I have had to find part-time work outside the home, which usually took care of any of my salary due to the fact that I had to pay a babysitter at the time. Now that I have older children, my salary doesn’t have to go to a babysitter, but I still don’t earn much.

    I have told my daughters — under no conditions even consider marriage until they have completed their bachelor’s degrees — don’t end up in my position in which you can’t earn a decent living from home.

    And for those who say how liberal it is for us to be working at all — there are a lot of husbands out there who want to live a lifestyle not commeasurate with a single income upon which the burdens of raising a large number of children fall. They have this mistaken notion that they can have their parents’ income while having twice the number of children, and that is unrealistic. If there isn’t money for a car trip each summer, then it is clearly the spendthrift wife’s fault. “Communication” on these issues consists of the husband lecturing and the wife standing meekly with her head down — don’t try to defend yourself or you will be very, very sorry. It just doesn’t work. The only solution is to work and earn extra money.

    I used to read Titus 2 blogs and for a while read a number of manosphere/red pill blogs. It hasn’t taken very long for me to realize that the whole thing is a racket.

    Don’t listen to people who go on and on about the higher education of women and how it will turn them liberal — what it will do is save your skin on a number of occasions and keep you sane while you keep the bills paid — or try to, anyway.

    I went to community college. The plan basically is for the children to attend community college, then transfer to the local university. They can live at home in this way and the expenses will be as minimal as we can manage them. Several of our homeschool families do this for their children, and they are debt-free. The Catholic colleges that have started up recently are prohibitively expensive and we can’t afford them unless the kids get scholarships.

    The people who say that the girls should be forbidden to go to college are usually people who either had one bad experience and use that as the lens to view everything (like my parents; my mother claimed that she “wasted” her degree, when in actuality it was her own personal choice to “waste” it), or they have some sort of agenda up their sleeves that should warn any girl to steer clear of the guy (if it is a man). Having been there, I can tell you — it’s no picnic to struggle to make a living without the piece of paper.

    And the nice talk about the church and your family helping you? That’s all it is — talk. Talk is cheap. Don’t believe it. They don’t help you. The church families are struggling just as much as you are, and they haven’t any spare money.

  3. anon, thanks for your comment. Helpful for me. You sound Gen X?

    Perhaps the worst weakness of trad men? Not realizing their daughter will likely marry “off the trad reservation”. It’s easy for parents to restrict their children and self-justify it if it saves them money or makes their lives easier, eh?

    I would warn, though, not to fall into the parent trap; making your personal experience into “the answer”. The culture changes like lightning. Who knows what the next gen will look like? Your kids may respond in the opposite way. It will be interesting to see how many kids your daughters have under your upbringing.

    A few more points:
    1) The fact that you have 6 kids puts your parents into the genetic lottery winners. They did for you what 95% of other Western parents didn’t. Your linage lives because of them.
    2) If you have a unified spouse on the issue, you can have a one-income family even at very low wages, just live frugally and smart. It’s a better life anyway, that’s my thought.
    3) I absolutely agree with you economics rule on college and family. We love to live very lean and teach our daughters this. Far more important than college and how to make money.

    1. “Your kids may respond in the opposite way.”

      Sure, but you can do all you can to encourage them to go the way you have taught them. One way is to be sure you leave all avenues of discussion open. My parents didn’t; with them it was “you will obey us or else”, and the line was the same from my sisters and brothers-in-law. I stayed in my Catholic faith with which I was raised, I married first and had children afterward in the correct order, but my family has strict orders from me that they are not to lay a finger on my children — or I will call the police immediately.

      “We love to live very lean and teach our daughters this. Far more important than college and how to make money.”

      Nobody’s questioning the wisdom of living lean, but what do you say when you are desperate to make the mortgage and the utilities? Sorry, but I disagree. Having seen the desperate side of the tracks, sorry, but my kids are going to college. I doubt you have come into contact with desperate, much like Lori Alexander on Always Learning has never come into contact with it (in the financial realm), yet she condemns higher education and job training for women, because she has never known desperation.

      God helps those who help themselves, help doesn’t just fall out of the sky, and we can all agree that we don’t want government handouts. So what are you going to do? All the talk about the church and the widows and orphans, which also includes the family on the rocks as well — that’s all it is, talk. It may be in the Bible, but most of the other families don’t have the resources to help anybody either, because they are also stretched thin. You really need to think that over long and hard before condemning college for girls.

  4. “The fact that you have 6 kids puts your parents into the genetic lottery winners. They did for you what 95% of other Western parents didn’t. Your linage lives because of them.”

    What does that have to do with the college education of girls? As far as I see, that is totally irrelevant. I have a sister who has only one child because she had serious fertility issues and was lucky to have the one. Then I have another sister with thirteen children. I have six because out of the three of us, I married later — I managed to get my associate’s degree while my sisters have none. And they have struggled financially all their married lives. My struggles have been peanuts compared to theirs. Because I had a somewhat established teaching career (albeit in private schools because I lacked the bachelor’s), I had various things to fall back on (I also took on a retail sales job).

    I don’t expect my kids to support me. They’re going to have to raise and support their own families.

    ” If you have a unified spouse on the issue, you can have a one-income family even at very low wages, just live frugally and smart.”

    And what are you going to do if you marry a man whose parents were somehow able to save way better than you — mostly because his mother worked while the kids were in school and there were fewer children, and he can’t seem to gather in his head the fact that you have not only far more children, but you are also homeschooling, and you can’t work and homeschool during the same hours? You, frankly, are stuck. ‘Sfact.

  5. Anon, I pretty much agree with everything you say, except and we can all agree that we don’t want government handouts.

    If I qualify for “handouts”, I would take them. The economy has been gutted to make life very hard for working families. Manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas and cheap labor flooded the country. In the prior generation, that money would have went to working families in wages, now it goes to government. Take it and feel zero guilt. Just raising your children as future workers makes you deserving. Those kids will pay taxes their whole lives. Never hesitate to go to one income and take government help.

    Regarding hardship: my parents and family never gave me a dime, and same for my wife. We did it all without any help at all. So I’m not blowing smoke, I know how hard it is. Never been harder. It’s a war zone.

    mostly because his mother worked while the kids were in school and there were fewer children, and he can’t seem to gather in his head the fact that you have not only far more children, but you are also homeschooling

    Understood. Families will have to start working together to make it possible for the average family to have large broods. We intend to do this for our kids.

    Look, I have no easy answers, except we have learned to live very, very lean. We walk/bike 90% of the time. Grow gardens, hunt/fish, do everything ourselves. You can live on very little today if you do your own work and have the time. And it’s a better life.

  6. What does that have to do with the college education of girls? As far as I see, that is totally irrelevant.

    I disagree. It’s totally relevant, because most women today are incompetent raising families.
    Most can’t live frugally or run an ordered and clean house even with 2 kids, let alone 10. Thus most men are not willing to have a large family (any family) these days because modern women are terrible homemakers (and spouses). So the average family is 1.8 children, families are in collapse, and many women can’t get a husband or have a traditional family. And for girls going to college? This strongly correlates with below-replacement children families. So it’s relevant all right.

    Re: money, I’ve done homemaker myself while living off savings, and spent less than minimum wage during that time. and had a great time. It was easier than my job, where I work 10 hr days. Yet never once have I meet another SAHM (including my college-ed wife!) who has the self-discipline to get up at 4 AM, work out with the family, do 100% home cooking, fix clothing and do home repair, homeschooling. They all lack the discipline, brains, or willingness to live different. But don’t tell me it can’t be done; I’ve done it. It’s why immigrants find it so easy to live in the USA, they work harder and expect less. But it don’t work if both parents are working and career focused, or not unified, which is what college ed girls generally lead to (along with tiny families and eventual extinction and immigrant invasion). But I’m open-minded to college ed girls. Just think it’s a tough and dangerous road.

    1. I’ve been observing the dialogue here with great interest for a few days, and wasn’t going to comment until I read this:

      “mostly because his mother worked while the kids were in school and there were fewer children, and he can’t seem to gather in his head the fact that you have not only far more children, but you are also homeschooling

      Understood. Families will have to start working together to make it possible for the average family to have large broods. We intend to do this for our kids.”

      I too, have a husband who comes from a home where his mom was required to work (FIL said so) and he’s used to a certain lifestyle which isn’t sustainable on one income unless it brings in a lot of money. He doesn’t want to “live lean” because that’s a sign of low-class.

      We don’t have any children yet, so it’s not really an issue. In the event where we do have children, what’s the answer for people like us? Are we screwed, especially considering the fact we don’t entirely agree on a lot of things? He comes from an American UMC family and I come from an immigrant one. Let’s just say our perspectives and beliefs don’t always jive, and I don’t think you need to have a spouse from an immigrant family to run across topics of contention.

      “Yet never once have I meet another SAHM (including my college-ed wife!) who has the self-discipline to get up at 4 AM, work out with the family, do 100% home cooking, fix clothing and do home repair, homeschooling. They all lack the discipline, brains, or willingness to live different.”

      Or maybe they’re actually tired and running a home like a tight ship 24/7 is exhausting?

  7. Maea, Or maybe they’re actually tired and running a home like a tight ship 24/7 is exhausting?

    I think the culture makes it exhausting. Whenever I hear this comment (and I hear it endlessly) I say: I’ll listen after SAHM the following for 1 year:

    1) Lifts weights intensely daily at home for 1 hr, no exceptions.
    2) No TV in house. No exceptions.
    3) Zero processed foods. No exceptions.
    4) Has a high nutrient diet (eggs + fish/meat daily).
    5) Homeschool, religious identity and friends.
    6) Co-sleeps with babies / breastfeeds.

    #4, #1, #6 are the most critical. Once my wife stared doing these 90% of issues went away. including many “health” issues. When I did my SAHD stint, I did all these things (minus breastfeed, natch). It was easier than the chaos alternative.

    Look, those 6 can be done by any SAHM. And I’ll challenge anyone doing them to not feel alert, alive, and be sleeping well. We Americans do it to ourselves. Especially with our diets, lifestyles, kids in government schools with bad friends. And TV.

    And there are few men who would look a gift horse in the mouth if his wife started living like this, slashing expenses, living with purpose. And over time, most women can get what they want from their husband. Plus most men will see the advantages of living well, even if they are of weak will. No, I’m afraid both men and women are slothful today and they feed off each other. They are fat, lazy, undisciplined. I’m sorry, but it’s true.

    1. You keep giving non-answer answers. We know what works for you and your family, but what about the rest of us? Also, I don’t think you’ve ever experienced what it’s like to care for a child with disabilities or health problems (nor does it appear you are the parent of one). If a SAHM has multiple young children at home, how do you expect her to devote an hour of exercise every single day?

      I don’t doubt you were able to accomplish the things you’ve shared, but I also suspect there are some details you’re not sharing as well.

  8. Maea, I don’t think you’ve ever experienced what it’s like to care for a child with disabilities or health problems (nor does it appear you are the parent of one)

    Having a child (or adult) with disabilities only makes the discipline and exercise more urgent.

    multiple young children how how to devote an hour of exercise every single day?

    We do with double-digits. Can’t imagine not doing it. Kids NEED it. Saying one cannot work out one hour each day? Like saying no time to eat, use the toilet, or clean. It’s not an option. Health issues alone cost more time than not working out and eating right.

    I don’t doubt you accomplish the things but I suspect there are details you’re not sharing

    Like what? 100 ya everyone lived like this, except they worked out harder and ate less (like hauling water & food). With less resources and tools (many like the Amish still do, with more children, with many disabled). Look, I’m personally amazed people are doing as well as they are. Look at the obesity rates, suicide rates, divorce rates, kids. IMO the loss of the fit, intelligent SAHM is mostly why.

    1. 100 years ago people were living closer to extended family, had communities, and had lifestyles not dependent on long distances or vehicle use. Most people have to move away from family for the jobs that provide an income to support one. This often leads to the isolation and ensuing struggles a SAHM faces. A lot of the SAHMs I’ve talked to have husbands who earn high incomes, but also at a cost– lots of time away from home due to traveling and long hours.

      Of course diet is important, but for most families who can’t afford to purchase steak or any meat on a regular basis they have to eat alternatives. Sometimes families have to rely on frozen foods because of budget constraints and I don’t look down on them for it. It’s clear you are rather dismissive of the realities that most SAHMs encounter and could probably care less about their struggles. Since a strategy worked for you it seems to elude you to the fact it might not work for others or be feasible.

  9. Most people have to move away from family for the jobs
    it’s a choice. Extended family is non-existent for us. We make do.

    SAHMs I know husbands w/high incomes, at a cost– time from home
    Life is suffering. I’m sorry. Americans need to cut spending. And work.

    most who can’t afford meat on a regular basis have to eat alternatives.
    Any US family who can’t afford meat regularly qualifies for public assistance.

    you are dismissive of most SAHMs realities
    I’ve lived it. I’m not talking about some mystery I haven’t lived myself.

    and could probably care less
    Projection? I’m the only one here offering hope & proven solutions.

    since it worked for you it eludes you it might not work for others
    I know not a single family it couldn’t work for. But nobody does it. Why? 7D Sins.

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